A couple of images and suggestions

Filip Stamate

User Posts: 11
Feb 16, 2022 08:01

These are a couple of images I made for fun. I had them rendered in another engine and tried remaking them in CentiLeo.

For this I made a "worn" version to play with the very nice "scratches" shader. I intend to go back to this once the dirt/AO shader works again to add more wear.

Now, for a couple of things I'd like to see added. Note that this is for C4D, I don't know if the Max version has more/different features:

- Being able to use multiple environment/HDRI lights. A very useful feature and all engines I've tried support it. As far as I can tell, CentiLeo only considers the first Sky object in the object manager.
- Would be also useful to be able choose for each HDRI what it affects, so you can have one for example just as the background without it affecting anything else, one which only affects reflections, one which affects lighting and so on.
- Distance shader, like for example Corona has.
- Curvature shader, for example like in Redshift
- Rounded edges shader
- I like the "Random" shader in CentiLeo because of how easy it is to get a bunch of colors in a certain shade to apply them to a Mograph Clone. However, it would be useful to also have something where you can choose exactly the colors you want to have applied. So basically, have the same effect like the Random shader, but be able to choose the colors. As an example, look at the Corona "Multi Shader" which allows you to choose some colors and then you can plug it in the color input of a material and each color will be used on the clones.
- A simpler way to create gradients. At first I was confused by the gradient/ramp node in CentiLeo which is used to remap colors instead of creating gradients. Then I found the pattern node, which kinda does it, but it's cumbersome to just get a simple gradient... linear, circular etc. And impossible to get something like a radial gradient. For a good example, check the "ramp" node in Redshift which can be used both for creating gradients AND remapping colors.
- Spread/Directionality for Area Lights
- I'd like it if you had your own light objects, like other engines have, rather than a tag on C4D lights/Sky Object. It's just better to have available only the options that do something rather than have all the C4D options there which do nothing in CentiLeo. It's weird that you need to go in the C4D light options to change the intensity and type of light.
- An option to turn off the default light. Currently, if you only have an emissive material in the scene and no light objects, the default light is on and you need to add a light object with 0 intensity to turn it off.
- A physical sky
- Volumes
- More AOVs/ability to mask objects and materials
- Random walk SSS
- I'd also like it if the IPR used a native C4D window. I know some other engines also use their own (like Corona) but I prefer a C4D native window which can be docked in the UI.

A couple of bugs/issues I've found while working on these:

- The IPR window is by default locked to a 16:9 ratio. Therefore the resolution you set in the render option isn't properly translated to the IPR. It would be better if you took the ratio automatically from the render options. And have that change automatically when you switch between scenes. Currently, the ratio doesn't change when switching between scenes with different ratios.

- I think the tiling options in the bitmap node don't work quite right.
If the tiling use even numbers then the texture won't be properly positioned. For example, this is a 2x2 tiling.

With odd numbers, it's fine. This is 3x3 tiling and it's correct.

- When stopping/canceling a render to picture viewer often I had a bug wh ere if I tried to start the render again, I'd only get a mess of colored pixels. Even the material previews would have the same issue. To solve it I would have to restart C4D. Seemed like the rendering process wasn't properly stopped or something so it wouldn't work when trying to start it again.

Anyway, thanks for your work and I'll probably get back to this if I find other issues.

Edit: Just found another issue: If I pass a node (bitmap or noise) through a gradient node (for remapping) then it won't work when plugged into bump. It just seems to do nothing.

Edited: Filip Stamate - Feb 16, 2022 09:38

ssjenforcer

User Posts: 217
Feb 16, 2022 09:50

Very nice.
From what I understand isn't the curvature node just another name for dirt node in other renderers?

I do, however, think that the falloff node is not working correctly right now.
It behaves like fresnel in both settings?
The colours/layers are visible in one angle but then change based on the angle of view of an object under both settings, not just fresnel. This makes it impossible to map a colour or texture to only the top or side of a surface because they flip if you move the camera or object to a different viewing angle.

It would also be nice to have a way to lock all three axis for scaling in nodes like transform, so that we don't have to adjust each axis individually.
And compositing tag to make things invisible but still reflect or block other objects from camera view.

Filip Stamate

User Posts: 11
Feb 16, 2022 10:30

Quote
ssjenforcer wrote: From what I understand isn't the curvature node just another name for dirt node in other renderers?

Not sure, it's possible different engines call things differently.

I think the dirt node in CentiLeo (which currently isn't working) is what's typically an AO node.

Here's the difference between AO and curvature in Redshift:

AO left, curvature right.

Although the AO node in Redshift has an "invert normals" options which makes the output similar to the curvature node, but for example I couldn't get the edges quite as strong as with the curvature node. It's nice to have both options.

Edited: Filip Stamate - Feb 16, 2022 10:30

Kirgman

Administrator Posts: 943
Feb 16, 2022 14:41

Filip Stamate, welcome to the rising CentiLeo world!

Thanks for images and suggestions!
I will reply in more detail later, as for now I can say CentiLeo supports multiple Sky objects to work with Camera (backround), reflections, diffuse and etc. As you correctly noticed the primary Sky object is the first one in the scene. It manages everything. And you need to attach CentiLeo environment tag to it. Inside this tag you can find Override Tab where there are several layers to override. You may just create several extra Sky objects (with centileo tags!) and assign different HDRI image there. And after that just drag and drop these extra Sky objects to the overrides of the first "manager" Sky. That will work. Later I will make many more supprted HDRIs that will be able to assign and override per material. There will be 10s or 20s of them supported.
I will fix Dirt shader of course, it basically will be do same as AO/Curvature. Don't know why Redshift has two nodes probably because of legacy reasons, but the process is similar in both nodes.
Will reply in more detail later. Improving the new tesselator for displacements now

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Filip Stamate

User Posts: 11
Feb 16, 2022 16:45

Thank you for the answer. I didn't notice the override function in the sky object before. That's definitely good. But with this you can't use 2 or more HDRIs for the same function, right? Like have two of them affecting reflection, for example? I often use multiple HDRIs which affect the same things. I think the other engines basically overlay them or something, not sure how it works, but they're not exclusive. You can of course turn off reflection/diffuse etc. in each of them if needed.

And regarding AO and Curvature in Redshift, like I said, I can't really get the same results with just one of them.
Maybe your dirt node works differently and really covers both, but using "invert" in the AO in Redshift doesn't look as good as the result I get from Curvature.

Edited: Filip Stamate - Feb 16, 2022 18:08

ssjenforcer

User Posts: 217
Feb 16, 2022 17:14

Quote

Filip Stamate wrote:
Thank you for the answer. I didn't notice the override function in the sky object before. That's definitely good. But with this you can't use 2 or more HDRIs for the same function, right? Like have two of them affecting reflection, for example?

And regarding AO and Curvature in Redshift, like I said, I can't really get the same results with just one of them.
Maybe your dirt node works differently and really covers both, but using "invert" in the AO in Redshift doesn't look as good as the result I get fr om Curvature.

did you do the metal texture all yourself?
I'm curious for that dial device how you got the metal tooling scratch marks in a circular pattern around the parts where they make sense.
I'm guessing the front metal is actually a very flat cone object?
Very neat.
and are the glass scratches simple scratch nodes on the reflection roughness or bump or both?
all the tutorials I find are octane, so I'm still almost sure my node workflow is right for most material types.

Edited: ssjenforcer - Feb 16, 2022 18:50

Kirgman

Administrator Posts: 943
Feb 16, 2022 18:26

Your override Skies with CentiLeo tags should be not first Sky in the scene. And you drag and drop them to the tag with overrides of the first Sky object. Yes you can override Reflection, Transmission, Camera, Diffuse, SSS overrides. You can also override the Sky that draws the shadows on the shadow catcher / matte object

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Filip Stamate

User Posts: 11
Feb 16, 2022 19:51

Yeah, I understand that, but I wonder if there's an option or you intend to add an option to have multiple HDRIs without having to override them. So two or more different HDRIs affect the same thing.

Here's a Redshift example, two HDRIs, an interior and an exterior. No override, they both affect everything in the scene (reflections, diffuse, GI etc).

You can see that Redshift basically overlays the two (windows on the field). This is an extreme, not really practical, example to show what I mean. Typically I'd use multiple studio HDRIs at the same time to light the scene.

I'd like it if there was this option.
And, have on/off toggles for what each affects for each of the HDRIs instead of the override system.

If you check Redshift or Corona (both work the same way in this regard) you can see what I mean.

@ssjenforcer
Yeah, the materials are done by me.

On the outside metal ring I used a noise scaled a lot on one axis and then mixed with the scratches shader and plugged into bump.
The inside dial with the numbers, it's a cylinder. There I used a bump map with that circular pattern (which simulates brushed metal) and used anisotropy on the material as well.

Anisotropy is to get those diagonal reflections.

Scratches on front glass are just the scratches shader into bump.

I'll try to upload the scene tomorrow if you want to take a look. I just have to remove the HDRI and the ground texture since I can't share those (commercial products), but otherwise everything would be there.

Edited: Filip Stamate - Feb 16, 2022 19:52

ssjenforcer

User Posts: 217
Feb 16, 2022 20:31

Quote

Filip Stamate wrote:
Yeah, I understand that, but I wonder if there's an option or you intend to add an option to have multiple HDRIs without having to override them. So two or more different HDRIs affect the same thing.

Here's a Redshift example, two HDRIs, an interior and an exterior. No override, they both affect everything in the scene (reflections, diffuse, GI etc).

You can see that Redshift basically overlays the two (windows on the field). This is an extreme, not really practical, example to show what I mean. Typically I'd use multiple studio HDRIs at the same time to light the scene.

I'd like it if there was this option.
And, have on/off toggles for what each affects for each of the HDRIs instead of the override system.

If you check Redshift or Corona (both work the same way in this regard) you can see what I mean.

@ ssjenforcer
Yeah, the materials are done by me.

On the outside metal ring I used a noise scaled a lot on one axis and then mixed with the scratches shader and plugged into bump.
The inside dial with the numbers, it's a cylinder. There I used a bump map with that circular pattern (which simulates brushed metal) and used anisotropy on the material as well.

Anisotropy is to get those diagonal reflections.

Scratches on front glass are just the scratches shader into bump.

I'll try to upload the scene tomorrow if you want to take a look. I just have to remove the HDRI and the ground texture since I can't share those (commercial products), but otherwise everything would be there.

yea I would love to see the node setup.
I thought maybe the center of the metal had that point look to it by using a nearly flat cone.

I guess you didn't need roughness map for those scratches, just bump?
but you use roughness for smudges (or scuffed metal) and stuff like that?

Edited: ssjenforcer - Feb 16, 2022 23:23

Filip Stamate

User Posts: 11
Feb 18, 2022 07:18

#10

Here's the scene:
https://we.tl/t-GxKqklNjTn

The link is valid for 7 days.

I removed the ground texture and replaced the HDRI with a free one. Otherwise it's the same except I added some more scratches on the metal ring.

No roughness for the scratches. Scuffs I think are more physically accurate by using bump. Maybe smudges/fingerprints work better with roughness. But keep in mind that if you use anisotropy you need high roughness already so it might be difficult to add extra roughness for other details. In that case probably a mixed material would be better where the smudges are on a different material which you mix with the metal material.

Edit: Another suggestions I'd have is to maybe compress the cached textures. After working on these I found out I had a cache of 11GB and I didn't even use that many textures.

I cleaned that up and then I tried for one scene alone and I got 600mb which when I zipped was down to 80mb. So the data in them is compressible.

Edited: Filip Stamate - Feb 18, 2022 10:55

ssjenforcer

User Posts: 217
Feb 18, 2022 13:14

#11

Quote

Filip Stamate wrote:
Here's the scene:
https://we.tl/t-GxKqklNjTn

The link is valid for 7 days.

I removed the ground texture and replaced the HDRI with a free one. Otherwise it's the same except I added some more scratches on the metal ring.

No roughness for the scratches. Scuffs I think are more physically accurate by using bump. Maybe smudges/fingerprints work better with roughness. But keep in mind that if you use anisotropy you need high roughness already so it might be difficult to add extra roughness for other details. In that case probably a mixed material would be better where the smudges are on a different material which you mix with the metal material.

Edit: Another suggestions I'd have is to maybe compress the cached textures. After working on these I found out I had a cache of 11GB and I didn't even use that many textures.

I cleaned that up and then I tried for one scene alone and I got 600mb which when I zipped was down to 80mb. So the data in them is compressible.

thanks, I'll check it out.
I might have to check my cached files, too.
I tend to only download and use 4K textures.

I was wondering about the roughness and bump because usually the tutorials have some textures/Alpha in one or both. And I found a great surface imperfection site with LOTS for free, and they all come with Alpha for roughness as well as a normal map!
It's called Noedle.
So I figured maybe smudges and scuffs and even scratches might be better using roughness Alpha and bump Normal textures.

Edited: ssjenforcer - Feb 18, 2022 13:36

ssjenforcer

User Posts: 217
Feb 20, 2022 16:46

#12

I also notice the material tag does not allow me to remove the effect of the 'Tile' check box even if it is unchecked, so I cannot get an image mapped without it always tiling.
And the transform and projection nodes don't have any settings to remove tiling.
Is there any way to map an image and not have it tile?

Attached Files

2022-02-20 16_43_12-Cinema 4D S24.111 (RC) - [Untitled 1 _] - Main.png (789.53 Kb)

Edited: ssjenforcer - Feb 20, 2022 20:46

Kirgman

Administrator Posts: 943
Feb 22, 2022 05:28

#13

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ssjenforcer wrote: I also notice the material tag does not allow me to remove the effect of the 'Tile' check box even if it is unchecked, so I cannot get an image mapped without it always tiling. And the transform and projection nodes don't have any settings to remove tiling. Is there any way to map an image and not have it tile?

uvwTransform node has the option "Is Decal". It kills the tilling and you can create a label or decal. But in this case the tilling size is controlled with "scale" setting in the same node with scale = 1 / tiles. It's a reversed value to num of tiles! So basically when UVW projection is manipulated this way you get the valid UVW coordinates in one part of surfaces for your decal and the rest part is invalid UVW region. In any mapped texture node (CentiLeo Bitmap, Noise, Pattern, Scratches, Flakes) there are "out of UVW color" settigns which can determine the color of the area that has invalid UVW.
To change projection type you need to connect uvwProjection to uvwTransform. These 2 nodes work same or very similar to native C4D nodes.

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Kirgman

Administrator Posts: 943
Feb 22, 2022 06:04

#14

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Filip Stamate wrote: - I think the tiling options in the bitmap node don't work quite right. If the tiling use even numbers then the texture won't be properly positioned. For example, this is a 2x2 tiling.

I also think you are right but as far as I remember I have tried to recreate the behavior of Cinema 4D tiling positioning in response to the settings change. And this method can be changed using uvwTransform and/or uvwProjection nodes if it's connected to CentiLeo bitmap. The uvwTransform node has "Pivot" option that sets the UVW coordinate position as a base of tiling change. By default it's (0.5 0.5 0.5) as in C4D and so the tiling grows from center to the all sides. If you make Pivot (0 0 0) then tiling will grow from a fixed corner to the right/top sides.

Quote
Filip Stamate wrote: - Distance shader, like for example Corona has. - Curvature shader, for example like in Redshift - Rounded edges shader

All these effects are working in a similar way and I hope to fix back the support for them starting from Dirt/Curvature/AO. As for Round Edges it's very much needed but to make it with a legal use we need to talk to Nvidia as they hold the patent to this tech back from Mental Images acquisition. Hope there will be agreement.

Quote

Filip Stamate wrote:
- I like the "Random" shader in CentiLeo because of how easy it is to get a bunch of colors in a certain shade to apply them to a Mograph Clone. However, it would be useful to also have something where you can choose exactly the colors you want to have applied. So basically, have the same effect like the Random shader, but be able to choose the colors. As an example, look at the Corona "Multi Shader" which allows you to choose some colors and then you can plug it in the color input of a material and each color will be used on the clones.

You can do it now connecting the CentiLeo Random node (with black & white output) to CentiLeo Gradient/Ramp to the "Input Map" slot. Inside Gradient/Ramp node you can move the knots positions left right to determine the frequency of each random color element and also determine the color of know or assign a texture to the knot instead of a constant color.
There is also one more non-obvious way of randomization using Random node "seed" slot. For example you can connect CentiLeo Noise node (with enabled) quantized option) to the Random.Seed. This will create randomizations based on the grey scale levels of Noise node.

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Kirgman

Administrator Posts: 943
Feb 22, 2022 06:22

#15

Quote

Filip Stamate wrote:
- A simpler way to create gradients. At first I was confused by the gradient/ramp node in CentiLeo which is used to remap colors instead of creating gradients. Then I found the pattern node, which kinda does it, but it's cumbersome to just get a simple gradient... linear, circular etc. And impossible to get something like a radial gradient. For a good example, check the "ramp" node in Redshift which can be used both for creating gradients AND remapping colors.

Sure it needs these extensions in place inside the node itself. They are based on UVW mapping. But even now it's possible to do this combining uvwProjection and Shuffle nodes. For example it's possible to get 3 components of UVW from uvwProjection and then connect it to Shuffle to move to be able to move the second or third UVW component to the first component position. And then connect result to CentiLeo gradient input map. This is complex for sure and will give linear gradient based on the given UVW projection.

Quote

Filip Stamate wrote:
- The IPR window is by default locked to a 16:9 ratio. Therefore the resolution you set in the render option isn't properly translated to the IPR. It would be better if you took the ratio automatically from the render options. And have that change automatically when you switch between scenes. Currently, the ratio doesn't change when switching between scenes with different ratios.

Yes, the IPR render resolution is decouple from the main render resolution and so the aspect! You can set the main resoltion high and IPR low if you want this may be convenient. To change the IPR resolution it's needed to click the "Gear" buttion in IPR window as shown here https://centileo.com/docs/index.php?COURSE_ID=3&LESSON_ID=39&LESSON_PATH=17.39

Quote
Filip Stamate wrote: - An option to turn off the default light. Currently, if you only have an emissive material in the scene and no light objects, the default light is on and you need to add a light object with 0 intensity to turn it off.

Ok, currently it's done this way just to see the scene geometry before the light sources are set. Actually this default white is the Sky + CentiLeo Environment tag with white constant background color. To turn it off there is need to create Sky + Environment tag with black color, zero intensity. This would be nicer than making a regular light with zero intensity

Quote

Filip Stamate wrote:
- Spread/Directionality for Area Lights
- I'd like it if you had your own light objects, like other engines have, rather than a tag on C4D lights/Sky Object. It's just better to have available only the options that do something rather than have all the C4D options there which do nothing in CentiLeo. It's weird that you need to go in the C4D light options to change the intensity and type of light.
- A physical sky
- Volumes
- More AOVs/ability to mask objects and materials
- Random walk SSS
- I'd also like it if the IPR used a native C4D window. I know some other engines also use their own (like Corona) but I prefer a C4D native window which can be docked in the UI.

Sure all of this is needed and is on our roadmap. I am a huge fan of Random walk SSS btw, but for example will need to make AOV masks first and there will be a lot of them supported in the same render process.

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ssjenforcer

User Posts: 217
Feb 22, 2022 16:55

#16

Quote

Kirgman wrote:

Quote
ssjenforcer wrote: I also notice the material tag does not allow me to remove the effect of the 'Tile' check box even if it is unchecked, so I cannot get an image mapped without it always tiling. And the transform and projection nodes don't have any settings to remove tiling. Is there any way to map an image and not have it tile?

thank you.

Also, was I correct that the falloff node is broken?
it always behaves like fresnel setting for me.

I might try the triplanar node to see if that works for certain objects.

Filip Stamate

User Posts: 11
Feb 22, 2022 17:41

#17

Quote

Kirgman wrote:

Quote
Filip Stamate wrote: - I think the tiling options in the bitmap node don't work quite right. If the tiling use even numbers then the texture won't be properly positioned. For example, this is a 2x2 tiling.

I also think you are right but as far as I remember I have tried to recreate the behavior of Cinema 4D tiling positioning in response to the settings change. And this method can be changed using uvwTransform and/or uvwProjection nodes if it's connected to CentiLeo bitmap. The uvwTransform node has "Pivot" option that sets the UVW coordinate position as a base of tiling change. By default it's (0.5 0.5 0.5) as in C4D and so the tiling grows fr om center to the all sides. If you make Pivot (0 0 0) then tiling will grow from a fixed corner to the right/top sides.

Ah, cool, it works with UVWTransform using your instructions. This is probably an even a better way of tiling.
Anyway, it's not a big deal, just wanted to let you know I found that the tiling options in the bitmap node don't work like in other engines. It can even be fixed there by adjusting the offset.

Quote

Kirgman wrote:
You can do it now connecting the CentiLeo Random node (with black & white output) to CentiLeo Gradient/Ramp to the "Input Map" slot. Inside Gradient/Ramp node you can move the knots positions left right to determine the frequency of each random color element and also determine the color of know or assign a texture to the knot instead of a constant color.
There is also one more non-obvious way of randomization using Random node "seed" slot. For example you can connect CentiLeo Noise node (with enabled) quantized option) to the Random.Seed. This will create randomizations based on the grey scale levels of Noise node.

Very nice! It didn't occur to me to pass the random node through a ramp. That's perfect! Honestly, with this combination I think it's the easiest way of coloring clones I've seen from all the engines I tried.

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Kirgman wrote:
Sure it needs these extensions in place inside the node itself. They are based on UVW mapping. But even now it's possible to do this combining uvwProjection and Shuffle nodes. For example it's possible to get 3 components of UVW from uvwProjection and then connect it to Shuffle to move to be able to move the second or third UVW component to the first component position. And then connect result to CentiLeo gradient input map. This is complex for sure and will give linear gradient based on the given UVW projection.

I could get a linear gradient with your instructions, but not sure if other types are possible? I need to figure out these Shuffle, Projection and Transform nodes a bit more.
But yeah, hopefully when you have time you can add different types of gradients as just options inside a node.

Quote
Kirgman wrote: Yes, the IPR render resolution is decouple from the main render resolution and so the aspect! You can set the main resoltion high and IPR low if you want this may be convenient. To change the IPR resolution it's needed to click the "Gear" buttion in IPR window as shown here https://centileo.com/docs/index.php?COURSE_ID=3&LESSON_ID=39&LESSON_PATH=17.39

I found out how to change the resolution of the IPR. But, I'd prefer if it was more connected to the main render resolution. I understand that it's useful to be able to have a lower resolution in IPR when working. So, I'd like it if you could do something like Redshift.

Like simply take the aspect ratio from the render settings (this really is the most important) and then you can have some options in the IPR (fit window, full size, custom scale etc).

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer there. Don't get too bothered by my comments/suggestions. It's just stuff that I found while playing with it and I realize they're not necessarily priorities.

Cheers!

Edit: Managed to get a radial gradient with UVWProjection (set to spherical) and Gradient nodes. Cool!

Edited: Filip Stamate - Feb 22, 2022 18:15

Kirgman

Administrator Posts: 943
Feb 22, 2022 18:40

#18

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ssjenforcer wrote: Also, was I correct that the falloff node is broken? it always behaves like fresnel setting for me. I might try the triplanar node to see if that works for certain objects.

Not broken. It has 2 modes: one for fresnel using IOR and one linear falloff. The second just changes the gradient linearly between 90 and 0 degree view points. Also the node has power setting which changes the curve of the falloff function. Power 2 setting raises the value to the power of 2, the power 0.5 gets the square root and so on.
The Triplanar node can accept the uvwProjection to rotate the coordinate system that is used to generate triplanar mappings. Also the triplanar can be nested into each other for some crazy use cases.

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Kirgman

Administrator Posts: 943
Feb 22, 2022 18:48

#19

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Filip Stamate wrote: Very nice! It didn't occur to me to pass the random node through a ramp. That's perfect! Honestly, with this combination I think it's the easiest way of coloring clones I've seen from all the engines I tried.

Btw I recall there is a "randomize by object parts" option in Random node. It allows to get randomized colors/values for the connected polygon groups inside a single mesh object. For example you have some natural tree with the leaves and the leaves are disconnected from the tree trunk. And as soon as these parts are disconnected they receive different values using the Random node.
As for clones you can use MoGraph node to get access to the colors of objects. There is also a dedicated node for X-Particles.

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Filip Stamate wrote: I could get a linear gradient with your instructions, but not sure if other types are possible? I need to figure out these Shuffle, Projection and Transform nodes a bit more. But yeah, hopefully when you have time you can add different types of gradients as just options inside a node.

It looks like the current combination of extra nodes to do this become too complex. Probably a Pattern node can be used too with some adjustments. But we may always get these particular greyscale patterns from Photoshop. Of course I need to add these simple features directly to the Gradient node

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ssjenforcer

User Posts: 217
Feb 22, 2022 22:34

#20

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Kirgman wrote:

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ssjenforcer wrote: Also, was I correct that the falloff node is broken? it always behaves like fresnel setting for me. I might try the triplanar node to see if that works for certain objects.

But when I use the falloff node in either of the two settings it behaves as it the textures are mapped based on fresnel.
Changing the viewing angle or angle of the object relative to the camera changes the texture mapping (switching them).
Is that not correct? Shouldn't the default setting make the one textures map to different sides of the object regardless of how you view it?
Like if I want to have dust on the top of an object and water streaks on the sides how would I do this when the camera moves or the object moves? The two textures swap surfaces.

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